If Only Christian Men Would Ask Us Out

One of the things I’ve heard over and over in recent years in the Christian circle of singles is, “Why don’t Christian guys ask the Christian girls out?”  This can be said several ways but the message is essentially that guys should “man up” and ask out all the Christian girls regardless of who the women are.  Some even go so far as to say essentially, “This is why Christian women end up dating non-Chrisitan men.”  According to these folks, if all the Christian guys would just ask women on dates then everything would work out.

There is so much here.  It’s a mess.

The Christian dating culture has made this so complicated and confusing.  And as a guy it’s really hard to navigate that culture.  In the secular culture its much more cut and dry when it comes to asking people out (or hooking up as the case may be).

Not so for us. On the one hand we are supposed to only ask people out that we think we can marry because marriage is the goal.  Now some women and Christian leaders say you should basically not ask anyone on a date without knowing this and of course, be sure to guard her heart.  Of course this is fairly impossible.

Then there are those that say, we can causally date at first.  How else can we get to know each other.  But here’s the thing, if you casually date more than one person in your church or community it can cause all sorts of problems.  It only takes one person to feel scorned to mess up your whole standing as a guy.

So we’ve got two constantly conflicting messages.  One side says nothing casual is ok and the other side says, just date around, it’s all good – as long as it’s “Christian”.  How do we know which girl you are?*

All of this makes men hesitant, both because they are confused about what is right** and by what is expected.  I know it did me.  When I was dating I pretty much took my chances anywhere other than my own church. I’m not saying that was right, but that’s how it felt.

The second factor at play here is that a lot of guys have never been taught how to be effective in talking with women.  The church likes to say man up and ask girls out, but they are short on help on how to do that in any sort of effective way.

So what happens is “nice” Christian guys go about it all wrong, it doesn’t work and then they get frustrated, quit trying or keep failing.  We need to teach men the truth about attraction, how to handle it, and how to approach women.  Not doing this in our current environment puts them at a disadvantage.

This leads to point three.  This is the idea that these poor Christian women just never get asked out by Christian men.  The women are of course more spiritual, out number the men and are frankly just the victims of our Christian guys not being man enough.  The general idea is that if Christian men were better men then all of these women would date them.

Look, there are some women who aren’t asked out at all. Some women need to think about how they present themselves and their own social skills.  Some really are a victim of sorts because they are choosing to modest and chaste and want to be a good Christian wife and are losing out to others.  Fair enough.

However, when a lot of Christian women (read most) say, “No one asks me out” what they mean is, “no one I’m attracted to asks me out.”  You see women don’t want to be asked out by just any guy. They can say that they want a “good Christian guy” but what they mean is that they want a guy that they are attracted to, who also is a good Christian guy. Now I’m not necessarily saying anything is wrong with that.  But the truth is that we do a terrible job of dealing with women and how attraction works for them.  We don’t teach guys the truth of how it works and we aren’t honest with what women really mean.  We rarely challenge women in this.

Finally, this idea that Christian men not asking out Christian women as the reason that Christian women date non-Christians is a complete joke. We are constantly rescuing women from responsibility. How heroic.  Here’s the bottom line.  People typically date who they are attracted to.  At that point they either use Christian as qualifier of not.  That is why it is important to manage attraction and desire, not just give into it.

I have no problem saying that a lot of Christian men need to take initiative, quit worrying about it and make a move, if you want to ask someone out, I’d do it.  I get that there are men who are hesitant, but I think it has more to do with confidence than courage, more to do with effectiveness than effort.

But we must stop blaming men alone for the problem.  We are all part of the mess and it is not a quick fix.  We keep dealing with about 1/10th of the picture and that isn’t going to cut it.

 

 

* The best plan is to ignore all of this and focus on what works.  More soon

**As a simple example of recent “Christian messages” – This guy says, just go out causally, while this one says we need to stop being casual – why would be confused?

47 thoughts on “If Only Christian Men Would Ask Us Out

  1. I dated at one time and here’s what I remember: It does take more courage for decent guys to ask a girl out. They approach it with a little more seriousness. I felt like I was walking way out on a limb every time. One of the big problems I saw was girls who played the “pursuit” card and casually said no without a hint of respect, but continued to hang around – only to realize that some guys don’t play that game. Hence, they never got asked again. I even said no if they asked me. There is nothing so fragile as a guy’s ego on asking a girl the first time. And there’s a fine art in tactfully answering the question. Girls probably need to keep that in mind if they want one of those “good Christian guys.”

  2. I just think that if a single Christian woman is asked out by a single Christian man, she should say yes unless she knows that he’s highly problematic in some way (e.g. a drinking alcoholic.)

  3. I don’t agree that women should automatically say yes to any Christian guy that asks them out. I’ve had a number of guys tell me that, but when I point out the girl that likes them that maybe they should ask out, they all immediately say “No.”

    However, I do think people need to stop thinking quite so much about attraction. Not that attraction doesn’t play a part, but most of my Christian friends are divorced now because they went by attraction and little else. I don’t think initial attraction is a good indicator of compatibility.
    I also think a lot of people focus on one crush to the exception of all others, and try to force that person compatible in their minds. We’ve built up love in our culture to be some mystical product of attraction, and often it’s an illusion. What we’ve labeled as “attraction” is actually more our imagination creating a false idol, and not who they really are.

    People don’t exist just for us to date and marry. God created all of us in His image, and all people have beautiful God qualities. We should be looking for how we can reach out and point people to God before whether they are marriage material.

  4. I remember that in my last few years of youth group, the boys and girls spent more time in segregated studies than they did interacting together. Having moved to new churches, I’ve seen that there’s more isolation out here and there’s even less normal interaction between young adults. I don’t know who the people my age are and we’ve been going to the same church for almost a year now. It seems that the more that the church pushes the issue of marriage the more the younger generation leaves the faith altogether. That might have been more of an issues with my last denomination though – as they taught complementarianism which emphasizes the roles of men as husbands and women as wives / mothers – it just made me feel like I didn’t matter to God unless I was all of the sudden married, which was difficult to do as I was the only single person. Some of the material I remember being taught: “Men are the initiators of relationships”, “don’t date people you don’t plan to marry”, “1×1=1, 1×1/2=1/2, 1/2×1/2=1/4 the more you give yourself in other relationships, the less love you will have when God presents to you the one and you will have less of a blessing”, “purity isn’t just about modesty, it has an emotional component to it – don’t hold hands, don’t flirt, don’t kiss because that’s cheating on the one that God wants you to marry and He wants you whole for that person.” Then they drove the point home with some materials from “True love waits” and “I kissed dating goodbye” So to me it’s no wonder that as youth Christians had a terrible foundation to build off of and things never really got better as they got older. I don’t know if all others were taught from the same materials I was, but I think many more would have been married by now if their church hadn’t pushed for the Christian approach, which is oddly unblibical, unless you view courtship as an arranged marriage, in which case it would be very biblical.

    • It sounds to me like they taught complementarianism the wrong way if it made you feel that way. I agree the kissed dating goodbye stuff was off. Again more the implementation piece. A lot of good intentions. Not as many good results.

  5. Agreed to many fronts – Christian guys aren’t walking an easy road for lots of reasons.

    However, your post does a disservice to the Christian women I know who are very attractive, successful, involved in ministry at a church with lots of young adults, are living their lives, would love to be married and aren’t picky…but they simply have not been asked out. AT ALL. BY ANYONE. It’s that simple. I’m not blaming men – but these women are real and their stories matter. Your post seems somewhat dismissive of them.

    Blaming the women (who absolutely carry their own baggage from the church’s teachings and the cultural expectations — which also needs to be talked about) for this question of “why” is simply not a solution to the problem you identified.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts – keep writing!

    • My first reaction to this post was similar, but I did read it again and now I don’t think the post blames womane, at all. It’s written by a guy, for guys mostly and that is it’s strength. And it does address one huge problem – we women don’t know (we may suspect, we may know some, but not all) what is attractive in a positive way, what would attract men in the right fashion. We know thay are driven by sight a lot but if you don’t want to do it “worlds-way” (seductive clothing) then there is little to no guidance how to show your beauty and you attractiveness.

      That would be an idea to explore – sharing with us women reading and following this blog some insight on what might be attractive to men. I think it’s easier for a married woman to determine what is attractive to her husband about her. She can, after all ask pointed questions. But if I’m attracted to a guy I’m hardly in a position to go to him and ask him “hey, can you cell me what should I do for you to be attracted to me?” – I wouldn’t blame the man if he just up and fled 😉

      As for the women dating outside their “religous equals” – I’ve seen it with my friends many times unfortunately. I’ve spoken with them, expressed my uneasiness and doubts and I can honestly say – it’s not men’s fault. Those women made their own (informed) choices and that’s their responsibility.

  6. Also, various churches actively discourage building relationships or attempt to limit communication between the sexes as a misguided form of protection.

    I attend a 5000+ member church in the western Minneapolis suburbs and there’s an unlisted policy in place that if a woman feels uncomfortable for any reason at all when a man talks to her on the church premises, she can complain to the pastoral staff who in turn will then ‘talk’ to the man in question and warn them off.

    It is essentially a ‘nuclear rejection’ of the man handed down by a pastor without the woman ever needing to get her hands dirty by saying, “No thank you. I am not interested.”

    It honestly never happened to me (yet – but I rarely pursue women in church now) but I know of at least dozen men that were warned in this manner over the years and not surprisingly, they all left that same church within a year or two. I am certain the actual number of incidents is much higher as I am only lightly involved in that church’s social scene these days.

    Once a man was ‘warned,’ gossip spreads like wild fire throughout all the cliques and the man’s reputation was permanently damaged. Quiet and shy men who finally took a chance suddenly became ‘creeps’ and were quickly ostracized and/or ridiculed by people that should know better.

    These days many, many of my female friends at that church wonder where all the single men are…

    I feel terrible for my friends but I honestly feel overall this particular church is reaping what it has sown.

    Many of us men at that church now don’t bother asking any of the women there out anymore. It simply is not worth the social risk of being permanently and negatively branded.

    • While I’ve personally not experienced what Sean talks about I’ve read it enough in blog responses that his concerns sound legit.
      My question is this: Where are these single, Christian women who claim to be begging us to ask them out? Seriously! Where are they?
      I’ve seen women in various churches who were not remotely attractive (not in the purely physical sense), but for a variety of reasons.
      The ones who vocally complain in blogs and elsewhere are really saying “stay away from me because I won’t change and will nag you to death when you do ask me out!”
      In one church I attended I met a woman who, after seeing her several times, I determined was unmarried because she never wore a wedding ring. Imagine my shock when I asked her to lunch and she tells me she’s happily married!
      In another church I had a woman pursue me to the point I felt extremely uncomfortable. I eventually told her I was not interested in dating at all at that time and we ironed out our differences and became good friends.
      I’ve come to view church as a clique not much different than junior high and high school where the “popular kids” are the married couples with children and the elderly couples in the congregation. If you’re not part of that club you really don’t belong. This is especially true if you’re a single male.
      Which makes these complaints rather ironic. Women complain that there are no single males in church ignore us as if we exhibit symptoms of ebola then cry and whine that we won’t ask them out!
      I guess the sad lot in life is that the only purpose of church for the single male anymore is to maybe hear a good sermon, take a few notes, then head back to the car with little more than the perfunctory handshake and “hello” at the door.
      Your words may cry “where are you?” but your actions shout “stay away!”

    • Wow, how demeaning. And yet I understand how this happens, coming from a small-ish town where one guy asking more than one girl on a date makes him a “player.” It’s unfortunate that suddenly a reputation precedes a man who dares to be bold, particularly when the women–yes, myself included–do spend so much time wondering why no one ever notices us or, if they do, why they do nothing about it.

      P.S. Hello, Minneapolis friend! (I’m in Northeast and attend church downtown.)

  7. I sometimes think that one of the great reasons for why we need ecumenism and bringing the Church back together is so we can combine Protestant Singles Ministry, Catholic Sexual Theology, and Eastern Orthodox Masculinity into a Christian dating scheme that actually works! 😉

  8. I admit that I don’t date much at church, and I am selective. We need to create some kind of network of singles and marrieds to facilitate ways for singles to meet. I am open to introductions, but only my work colleagues have ever introduced me to someone.

  9. Yeah, I got mad….then sad….and finally I had to just say (and pray) “What am I doing in church…what is the real reason why I am here? WHY am I still involved?”

    It wasn’t for dating. It wasn’t to find a wife. It was to get right, and keep right with Christ. The plain answer right there, always in front of me. The answer that really mattered.

    Dating, finding a wife is just an added bonus I guess.

    Look, it’s HARD. I see single moms in my church (and they are NOT married); yet in the same breath, they’re telling me how much Jesus matters to them, and finding a “real man” that can handle her, and be her HELPER to raise the child. (wow, a man is a “helper” to a woman now)

    You approach, they answer is “I just wanna be friends” and if you don’t approach it’s “where are all the real Godly men” and any REAL Christian man doesn’t want to be “that guy” (the one that is asking all the women out, and getting that reputation in church)

    Trying to Internet date is even worse. I even posted on our Salvation Army Singles Facebook Page and posed these issues, and questions…..yeah, was told to “keep trying” and that “God has the perfect woman out there, and he’s preparing you!” (mind you, the person giving this advice has been married since they were 20, and met he wife when he was 17…..I am 44). The other comments mentioned that “God has a plan” (and I know this, but when I was unemployed, I didn’t think ‘God has a plan’ and then proceed sit around and wait for a job / employer to come to my rented room and fix this)

    So yeah…….as a man evidently I have a TON of options because there are more women than men, and Christian women of course have it so much worse……..

    The only conclusion I came up with was “Love God and Serve Man” because in the end, there really isn’t anything else getting mad about…….besides, many Christian women I have met are like me, and are “broken” and yet demand perfection (Jesus) from a very imperfect world in the men they want to date.

  10. Well, well, Justin. Something must have pushed your buttons. Your post brought some wry smiles to my face as I read of the hard places men and women find themselves in trying to find a meaningful relationship. Thanks for being authentic. It’s too easy to blame the other for dissatisfaction. I’m grateful God puts up with whiny children – and that He encourages us to find our comfort and companionship in Him first. Blessings to you!

    • seventies jason is my hero… Seriously I need a signed poster of him for my apartment… I am a Bible College grad and missionary.. wow you stole the words out of my mouth… You approach ANY woman,, ohh my God your creepy…, stay away, Where are all the men!!!!??? Dito with TJ… women cry where are the men but there actions say if you approach me you will be convicted of sexual assault.. I am going to be 35 next month, I’ve only been on four dates and I’m attractive and I’ve saved myself… by what I was taught, I am apparently highly desirable… Read my lips….
      BS… I am not wanted or desired at all, Christian women prefer jerks with no jobs so they can be divorced by age 26 to be featured on MATCH.COM.. seriously go look. All I ever wanted was to do God’s will and have a family, I cannot even achieve this in my country. I’ll likely have to save enough money to go to Slovakia and get a real woman to bring back. I find id sad and sick to know in ANY country on earth that I have been I can walk up to a beautiful woman anywhere be presentable and start talking to a complete total stranger, and easily get their contact info, IF THEY DON’T GIVE IT TO ME FIRST…Even in Israel.. Nope, not in my Femanatzi Country. I have witnessed to girls from Marilyn Manson concerts that communicate light years better the Christian women. Total sad, take my advice, IMPORT. Completely abandon they 100% SHALLOW American ‘Christian’ women, do not waste your time, everything points to them being completely ill equipped in BASIC adult communication and unrealistic and dishonest as what they are really struggling with. Like the man said… what they are really saying is, No one that I am attracted to is asking me out..

  11. Oy vey. I feel like this article is QUITE the mixed bag. I do agree that EVERYONE is to blame, but I think that’s because of the overall nature of evangelical American Christian culture’s emphasis on marriage and the nuclear family (which, btw, also leaves out childless/infertile couples)Both MEN and WOMEN have been taught conflicting(and in some cases just flat out wrong) messages about desire, attraction, lust, and relationships. And it seems like the real problem is that you find that those who are outside the Christian bubble are MUCH more straightforward and clear about what they do or do not want. Somehow, we’ve turned our Christianese as another impenetrable fortress for people to overcome in order to live out authentic community.

  12. I’ll tell you exactly why men have stopped asking women out in my church (very large, many congregations, well established, single women greatly outnumber single men). Men get exactly one (1) chance to ask one (1) woman out, and if it doesn’t go perfectly, he can’t date anyone else at the church FOREVER. The reason? Women talk. If a guy gets turned down, he’s “the guy that she turned down” and is therefore undateable. No women wants to date another woman’s rejects. If he asks out several women, he’s “the guy who asks everyone out”. No one wants to date that guy either.

    So we’ve given up. This is a game we can’t win, so we’ve stopped playing. I’ve got some suggestions on how women could fix this, but I’d probably just make you all mad. So you’ll just have to figure it out yourself.

    • Spot on. Think of all the reasons why it is ill-advised to date a woman you work with, and those are the reasons I don’t date the women in my church.

      • Yes this is true – females have one advantage on men that we all too easily forget – The Hive mentality. Just about anything you say or do in front of women is going to be gossiped about.
        This goes outside of church too obviously – I have paid close attention to what women talk about you can include topics such as my current bf’s impotence etc….
        – they laugh and boast about it;

        There is a reason why the early church had rules that women were to remain silent in church and wear head coverings – this preserved their dignity and reminded them that they were to be in submission to God and the Church.

        Modern women are loud, arrogant, obnoxious and selfish – all products of feminism. I believe they are under God’s judgement which is most probably why their looks diminish so quickly after 25. If a women can’t get married by early 30s its usually game over.
        They have a few years about 17-25 where they are desirable too men and hold the cards in their favor. After that, it starts to switch and by 30 you MEN are the CATCH!! Once they get old and desperate enough to start begging for attention, ignore them. Treat them exactly as they treated you!
        So have the last laugh guys – you can do the single life better then they can. Remember Adam was created first and lived in harmony with God until woman arrived. As a man you were created alone by God to work in a garden, therefore if you have the right attitude you can thrive as a single man – embrace your work, your hobbies – and live for adventures and experience.
        Women on the otherhand do a lot worse without a partner and frequently end up on antidepressants with mental illnesses.
        So my advice is, if they don’t have anything going for them, then don’t give them your attention – you owe them nothing.

  13. If only Christian men asked out Christian women? What is the point in doing that? So we can get rejected for the umpteenth time? Perhaps some of us are masochists who enjoy being told things like we’re “ugly, grotesque, hideous, repulsive, stupid,” or even worse things such as we’re so repulsive we should kill ourselves.

    Speaking as a man who has been a Christian for 25 years, and been trying to date for around 20 years, I can tell you the answer is simple. Christian women do not want us. They see us as “nice guys/too nice” which in their mind, means we are “wimps, wusses, boring, predictable, uninteresting” or even as some kind of repressed deviant. Instead, they will date almost any “bad boy/rebel” type of guy who hits on them, especially if he is “hot.” Of course, he has to have all of their other listed requirements such as he must be ripped, have a high income, over dress, pay for everything, be confident to the point of narcissism, have perfect hair, and oh, be ripped.

    I know exactly one couple who met in church, got married, and have a good life with their two young children. He’s a good man; you could find his picture next to the definition of Christian. He is nothing special in the looks department (short, pudgy, and lost most of his hair before he was 25) and she is gorgeous. She is the only Christian woman I’ve ever known who actually was looking for a Christian man, and everything else was secondary. It couldn’t have been money or intelligence; she has a PhD and was making six figures. He was working on a Master’s while earning around 25k. She went out with him and eventually married him because they both wanted the same thing, a Christian spouse and to serve God.

    Many of the other women in the church ended up marrying non-Christian guys. As far as I know, only two are still married. Most ended up divorced within 2-3 years after their husband either cheated on them, physically abused them, both, or worse. I would bet my next 10 paychecks that they still reject Christian men, and have moved on to their next “bad boy” because he’s more fun.

    I can speak for a lot of guys, I have plenty of friends who are single men, not just myself, but the #1 reason we don’t try anymore is because years if not decades of rejection have left us so scarred that we just do not want to be told yet against that we’re ugly, or worthless, or whatever other insult women can think of. Why not just say “no thanks” instead of launching a nuclear strike? I know I am nothing special, heck I have no doubt that I am physically ugly, but if a woman really wants a Christian man who would treat her as God says he should, would never hurt her, would always be there for her, would always be faithful to her, would do his best to be a good father, then why have I never been given a chance. At least try to get to know me a little. If it doesn’t work out, fine, no one has been injured, and at least we both know to move on. I’m not picky; I don’t expect a woman to be a Kate Upton or Sophie Turner. My only real standard when it comes to looks is a woman who has enough self-respect to take care of herself. Other than that, all I want is for her to be a Christian woman who has and will continue to do her best to live by the Word of God. Is that so much to ask?

    • Evidently it is to much to ask. Who told you were ugly? A woman? A Christian woman? Then you know right there she is not worth you time, talents and treasures.

      A lot of life long single Christian men, heck even a choice amount of secular men are convinced they are “ugly” or physically unattractive because women won’t date them. I fell into this pattern for a long time. Most of my life if truth be told.

      No, I am not a ladies man today, and there are no women in or out of my church who have given signals that they are interested. But I do know I am not ugly. I won’t have a Christian woman, or the infamous “they” out there steal, trample, or knock me out of my walk with Christ. I no longer let people stal my joy in what Christ has delivered me from. I won’t let “hollywood” or the music industry, or the entertainment industry (even the Christian one) define what is attractive or not, and tell me what I am lacking. Because in that world, we’re always not going to be ripped enough, tall enough, stay young forever, have enough money, and never have what it takes……because there is always going to be someone else that is better looking / has more on a cultural standard.

      Women like Ryan Gosling, (yeah, he’s a good looking guy, and 99% of us don’t look like that in or out of church), but they also liked Prince (here was a very short man, frilly, eccentric and he had zero problems attracting women). Women over the years have told me that they also thought Owen Wilson was “hot” and chick magazines have even verified his hotness. Here is a man with a bulbous nose, crooked teeth, a typecast actor and he always seems to have a “who farted?” look on his face. Standards of attractiveness are very subjective.

      If you are indeed convinced you are unattractive…….well, that can and will seep into who you are and as Justin has said on this blog many times “women can smell desperation” and a “lack of confidence” in a man. I’ll disagree with him about some aspects of attraction (he knows this) but brother please don’t put your happiness on a wife, a date, being a father. Don’t put or project the reason why you struggle in this area on fluff-standards by lukewarm Christian women.

      • Yes, it was “Christian” women who told me I was ugly, grotesque, hideous, repulsive, stupid, and one who actually did say I should “do the world a favor and kill yourself.” If one had done it, or even a few, I’d blow it off as just some jerks. However, it is the #1 reason women have rejected me. (#2 is that I am “too nice” which translates to I am a wimp, wuss, pushover, coward, etc.) And it is not like they’re saying it without merit. If you saw me, you would be hard pressed to disagree. It would take me tens of thousands of dollars in plastic surgery to correct the majority of my problems, but some cannot be fixed due to underlying health issues that I’ve had all my life and cannot be treated or cured. (None of these will kill me, just make me miserable.) The last time a girl showed interest in me was 25 years ago, because she was too young to realize that she didn’t have to settle for last place.

        I’ve already accepted I will never have a chance with a women. Nothing about me is what they want, and without looks or money, there is nothing to override all of the massive negatives. Being a Christian and trying my best to live as God says we should, is not enough. In fact, for most women, they will reject any real Christian man because he is a “nice guy.”

        What finally broke me was my father telling me I am a failure as his son and as a man because I am unable to find a wife and give him grandchildren. For that reason, he has disowned me. Going through life with no one, not even family, is more difficult than almost anything else.

  14. So why are you here? If there is zero hope. You have accepted, what’s the point of venting here? Christianity has hurt you, Christian women have hurt you (and if they insult you in that way, they are not Christian). If a woman won’t date you it doesn’t make them not Christian either.

    You are the one who got me in trouble over at Ruthie Dean webpage because I would not wallow with you and just agree with you about how terrible Christian women are 😉 I tried to give solid advice and you turned everything into my fault.

    You need to pray. You need to not care what the other “Christians” think of you; hard to do….admittedly but it can be done.

  15. You got yourself in trouble over there with your personal attacks on me. For whatever reason, you just decided you hated my guts from the beginning. You flat out said horrible things that got the site’s owner to tell you to knock it off. I didn’t make you say those things, you did it because of the venom in your heart.

  16. Personal attacks? I told you that God didn’t owe you a wife, a date, a job, children, or a job that utilized all your skills or potentials. You also then blamed me for your lack of faith. You also wailed and poured your heart out and EVERY answer someone gave you “just wasn’t good enough / you tried that / somehow & someway somebody else somehow & someway let you down” . I gave advice, you didn’t like it. You then tattled on me to the administrator….something a fourth grade bratty schoolgirl would do mind you………

    Look, you can call it “venom” in my heart, it isn’t. I wish……WISH a solid Christian man told me what I told you when I was twenty five (and you didn’t even read my reply about me praying / empathizing with you as well) .It would have perhaps spared me DECADES of loathing, hurting, pain, anger, resentment and festering mental wounds and being SEPARATED from Christ.

    You can go to all the blogs and wail about your situation and how it is hopeless, and it may be……in that area. I don’t know you…….but the advice and empathy people gave……including myself wore thin really quick.

    You want to stay the way you are. You are entitled, and your behavior / posting IS unatttractive to women………Christian or not.

    Justin will listen to you, but he won’t cut you the slack you are getting on other blogs. Christ expects us to press on. It took me DECADES to learn this and frankly my life got better. Yours will too.

  17. Pingback: Overcomplicated. – Joyfully Single. Joyfully Waiting.

  18. I find it extremely difficult to find a relationship as a Christian guy. Especially if you’re a teen in high school. I see people in relationships (both Christian and not) and I’ll think to myself “God, why can’t I have that? Why can’t I have a relationship.” In my case, it’s depressing to know (or at least think) that there aren’t any Christians that WANT to date me. It hurts me inside. No one shows any interest. Maybe I’m too “nice” as someone told me. Whatever it may be, I try to remain faithful to God. It is just hard to deal with it.

  19. Very well put I gan identify with this dilemma along my Christian with Christ.sometimes it’s not even not knowing what to say or how to approach a lot of times the struggle is keeping the old nature and old worldly you from surfacing because you don’t see you sister in Christ as a worldly woman but one worthy of honour therefore it may make it difficult to find the appropriate words . And not comming Off as flirtatious.great article though God bless

  20. This article is getting way ahead of itself. First, please explain to men the benefits of associating with women. I don’t believe there are any. Even if you barely know them, their cost exceeds their benefit. And if you’re stupid enough to date one, the costs become enormous and all benefits disappear. Why would I ask you out if being with you is always a miserable experience?

    • John – I know of which you speak. A world without women involved in it is different, but you can resign yourself to that ,understanding that you ust watch what you say in public. I did poorly enough in this ,early on, seeing EVERY contact with a woman as a deserved punishment for being either at a party or on a date. It takes a while to get there, but are you certain that you really want to avoid ALL social, non-employment connected contact? That is what it will be if you really feel that way.

      • Yes I really feel this way. Sign me up for a female-free existence. I’ve lived life both ways, and keeping women out has definitely made me happier. I can’t argue with facts and evidence.

  21. Asked a girl out in church once and she never said yes or no. Next week I found myself ostracized from all her friends except for one and a few members from the church. I was the guy who always helped around, read his bible, prayed and played on the worship team. Ouch, now I’m very sure that I’ll never ask any girls out in church. They were suppose to be my family and have my back but I found myself alone.

    • You might want to find a new church or even just take some time off church for a while – it can be a very socially suffocating atmosphere – i have found that spending much of my life in the protestant/reformed church has actually harmed my personal development.
      Take some time off bro, read some philosophy – a great book is “The Manipulated Man” by Ester Villar – It’s on Youtube as an audio book i think. Watch it – it will change your life.
      Listen to Tom Leykis videos on women that will also help put things in perspective.

      Down the track you may want to look at finding an Eastern Orthodox Church – if you are in the USA there are many now they are quite accepting to non-Greeks. you will find the services to be very liturgical and structured around worshipping God and the sacraments. It is the only church that hasn’t been thoroughly feminised (yet) because it has been off the radar and non as accepting of Western culture.

  22. Rereading some of the comments here. I’m just thinking, as a woman, how my experience has been different. I do get asked out occasionally by Christian men – maybe every few years, but it has never been by someone I’m interested in. I’ve never “reported” someone who has asked me out, even when he refuses to take no for an answer and interferes with my church experience, and I’ve even been pressured to date someone because he was evidently the last good, Christian man left. I’m just not going to waste his time or mine if I know I’m not interested and I also feel no obligation to explain why I’m not.

    Then I think about how some couples at church got together. There is obviously a success rate somewhere, somehow. Justin – you found a wife. What did you do and what do you recommend to your readers? I have two solutions: one – host a party inviting all of the single Christians in your area and several sympathetic couples. It will be easier to get to know people in a casual setting. two – let mutual friends know when you’re interested in someone – that seems a lot easier than asking a woman out in a cold call manner or waiting for a man to ask who doesn’t know if you’re interested or not.

    What I do know – blaming the opposite sex isn’t helpful and doesn’t make a lot of sense. If you think the opposite sex is only interested in Barbie/Adonis types, you might want to look at the people you’re going after yourself. All kinds of people who aren’t swimsuit models and CEOs get married all of the time, so to say Christian women/men behave a certain way isn’t accurate when you consider that many do eventually get married throughout their 30s, 40s and beyond.

  23. The Bible does not specifically command men to make the first move. Why, back when the world was perfect, God brought Eve to Adam! The Bible really doesn’t say anything in particular about dating.

    That being said, I believe that – since the ultimate goal of dating should be marriage, and marriage is a big deal – Christians should date as effectively as they can. Life is short. I believe that, ideally, only people who have a mutual interest in each other should date. If a woman is interested in a man, and if the man is interested in him and she can perceive it, she might could drop some hints or “meet him half way,” so to speak (which is what Ruth did with Boaz). This would especially help if the man is shy. Just because a man is shy does not mean he is any less deserving of a date than a woman is, especially if the man is expected to pay for it.

    On that token, women also do not deserve marriage anymore than men do. No one is entitled to marriage. And the Bible does not specifically call singleness a sin, so nobody, man or woman, owes anyone marriage. Therefore, I do not believe that men owe it to women to make the first move. Since the Bible does not forbid women from taking initiative, they could flat out ask a man out, if they’re that desperate for a date. My Mom did so, because she could tell that my Dad was interested in her, but was somewhat shy. For anyone who is perturbed by that, my Dad still proposed, if that makes you feel any better.

    • yeah I think that is true. Sometimes though that REALLY weirds guys out if you ask them out. I asked one out, I think the whole thing made him double shy. He still acts friendly to me, but double the shyness! I gave up!

  24. Pingback: It’s Time To “People Up” | More Than Don't Have Sex

  25. Maybe the world itself is to blame? Or partly the church in general?

    I noticed the older I got in church the less and less people gave one care about you as a single person. When you are a “youth” they have a ton of things for you to do and meet people. Then in high school, and sometimes they have things in college, but the college numbers of men dwindle dramatically. It was so bad at my church I decided to try to hang out at Christian groups at my college campus, but the gender was still horribly skewed. The “singles” group at my church at the time was 2 men (not from the church- much older, and one who was talking to me said “I’m not really a Christian even) and about 30 women over the age of 50. As someone in my early twenties I just got up and walked out.

    I went to another church with people closer to my age, but they really emphasized having a family. I asked one of the other women “how can i meet anyone here?” Their response was that I should volunteer more . I volunteered..I met a bunch of married people and zero singles, I even went to “life group” every week. There was one single guy in the group but we had zero attraction to each other.

    It’s sad- what is a woman supposed to do? I have my degrees, a stable job, etc. Literally the only men who have asked me out were 1) a guy who wanted to sniff my underwear 2) a Mormon boy in high school 3) a pervert who said he had a 12″ long dick and wanted to put it in me –no lie 4) a guy who said “i feel a connection” after I shook his hand once- i was not attracted to him at all, didn’t know him, and when I said I wasn’t interested in going out with him politely he immediately called me a bitch. 5) two girls in college had the hots for me – obviously do not swing that way and wasn’t interested and had to flat out tell them.

    I’ve been a Christian now for 30 years. I feel like love in a romantic way is probably a lost cause. I don’t like the idea of internet dating- it is a competition. I’m in no way ugly or anything, but I don’t like the concept in the first place. I just want to meet someone in a normal fashion and come to admire them. But its like the “they” dont even exist. 😦 . I live in a huge city, but even in my day to day to day life I rarely even run into other Christians. All throughout college, and work, I think I can only count a handful of them, and my city has over 10,000,000 people living in it.

    • I hear you Rachel. It is the same way with men in their 30’s. We just don’t have it as bad as you do. The pool is larger for men; but, not large enough to really find someone.

      I also agree that churches don’t really get singles in their 30’s. We need better networking more then ever in order for us to meet other Christians. That isn’t happening. There was an instance I heard where a church wanted to shut down it’s singles ministry – bad idea.

      Online dating helps fix this; however, there is one big disadvantage. To much is expected on a first date. If you don’t feel that “connection” to someone after one date – that is it. No second date – move on. It’s hard to know for sure if someone is really right for you after just one meeting.

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